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Old 03-05-2016, 12:18 AM
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Default Batterys vs. Supercaps

Just wanted to see if anyone could shed some light on this subject

Perks of having both?

Price to output comparison?

Wattage per bank?
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Old 03-05-2016, 01:29 AM
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this is my opinion. you cant beat batteries. the more the better. as for caps they are good to help stabilize voltage. lots of batteries with a cap at each amp has worked out well for me.
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Old 03-05-2016, 04:03 AM
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If someone posts the specs of super caps then we can probably compare them to batteries.

All I know is super caps were pretty damn expensive and that the normal capacitors at shops are garbage (2 fared being about $50 vs a hc600 being the same price and 50 fared or something like that)

What is your setup? Goals? Voltage? Available space for batteries?
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Old 03-05-2016, 07:39 AM
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There's a few ways to look at it, total energy storage, amperage output, and recharge speed. They kind of go in am inverse relationship, based on an equal dollar amount spent.

For example, a loose approximation of equal units for either a bank of 6 supercaps, a 20 ah LiFePO4 cell bank, or a 120ah AGM cell bank.

.5*C*V*V gives 250kJ for a cap bank, 936kJ for a bank of 3000F caps, and 5,616 kJ for the AGM. All assuming 13V.

Then we have big differences in the speed at which the cells release energy, and at what voltage they deliver the current at based on a known curve of current vs voltage. Where one bank of caps can deliver 1200 amps with pretty linear voltage sag, a LiFePO4 has a higher voltage under load than a standard battery, but dollar for dollar can provide less current than a supercap. Last an AGM "loses its float charge" quickly, but provides good current for the price.

Last is recharging, in which case the supercaps will accept more energy the fastest, LiFePO4 cycles next fastest, and the AGM charges the slowest relative to the others, sometimes more so in a battery with thick internal plates or higher internal resistance.

So what does this all mean for amplifiers? Most important thing for an amplifier is to receive current on demand, in its rated voltage range. Since music is dynamic current demands vary over time, burst charging cycles are inherently build in. Some modified music, however, has long current draw demands and exceeds even the most capable charging systems for certain periods.

With these factors in consideration, caps have the best current capacity, but require large numbers of banks to provide enough reserve or higher charging rates from bigger/multiple alternators to keep up with total energy demand. Supercapacitors have a very good overall lifespan, and sometimes very good deals come up on un abused banks. LiFePO4 has slightly less current on demand, but a favorable discharge curve with higher average voltage through all its energy output. Charging is very efficient but for the money, it's still expensive to get a decent reserve for the times when demand exceeds charging. AGM, is a heavy but we'll tested energy source, with decent current capability to voltage, and by far the most energy stored. The charging speeds leave something to be desired, but once you hit a duty cycle voltage on an AGM, you can stay there for a long time.

All three options have voltage options, 12V, 14V, and 16V. And they all work well together. So unless you have specific concerns like weight, or budget, I would say we should use all of them together as their best attributes are complimentary and do not take away from the performance of each other.
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Last edited by So Low; 03-05-2016 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 03-05-2016, 07:53 AM
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I should also say that the equipment being used plays a role in determining the best option, some amplifiers ie DD M4a, can be run like a dog anywhere in its voltage range, others are much more sensitive to low voltage ie NS-1 (imo). Others, like Brazilian amps, are designed to work right in the middle of their voltage range as too much voltage can overwork the internal components. So once you pick your equipment, you can decide on your electrical support. Or if you already have one type, then pick your equipment accordingly. The key point is they all work well, in a well planned application.
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Old 03-05-2016, 07:55 AM
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Just to give you an idea (general idea on price)
1 bank of super caps $250
1 20ah lifepo $1000-$1500
1 100aH agm $250-$350

The caps are good for about 3kw per bank but for daily usually need some battery back with them
Usually people can get 7kw fairly easily with a lifepo
And great battery reserve is 100aH per 1kW but you can do fine with 50aH per 1kW
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Old 03-05-2016, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tymoto21 View Post
Just to give you an idea (general idea on price)
1 bank of super caps $250
1 20ah lifepo $1000-$1500
1 100aH agm $250-$350

The caps are good for about 3kw per bank but for daily usually need some battery back with them
Usually people can get 7kw fairly easily with a lifepo
And great battery reserve is 100aH per 1kW but you can do fine with 50aH per 1kW
Thanks I forgot to include relative pricing. But it's good to have a number to reference.

I think that LiFePO4 price is a bit inflated, but is nonetheless the most expensive. From a reputable manufacturer, I think $800 is about what you pay, juicebox is at $859 i think. I've found unbalanced options for as low as $400 but wouldn't recommend using them without very very good experience with electric power usage and circuits.
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Old 03-05-2016, 08:19 AM
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I've yet to use lifepo battery's but between caps and agms that I've always used I'd prefer the caps its really pressive how much It actually stabilizes your voltage but I will say that in my application I had enough alternator amperage to support current demands. To me that's the clear winner in a situation where you have enough alt power and just want to stabilize power. If you have a definite deficit of charging power to power draw I wouldn't just suggest an all cap solution but maybe a combo of caps and agms or it seems that lifepo would be a good solution on paper, again I have yet to have any experience.

Last edited by Goldfishrock1; 03-05-2016 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 03-05-2016, 10:13 AM
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I clamped 19kW with a 0.2v drop on 20 banks of caps.
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Old 03-05-2016, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lunchbox View Post
I clamped 19kW with a 0.2v drop on 20 banks of caps.
You have a monster cap bank. Very jealous.

What model caps and How much did the whole bank cost if you don't mind me asking
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