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Old 03-29-2015, 08:30 PM
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Had my Odyssey Battery rep swing by my shop on Friday... he hooked up some of his new gadgets to test out the lithium's cranking output.




His new testers did not have the option of setting the load under a lithium iron battery... He instead set it up as a wet cell/agm.
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Old 03-29-2015, 08:32 PM
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Everyone knows that test is flaky.

And its not hard to get that type of performance out of prismatic cells either.

Juicebox batt does deserve the respect it should have on the complexity of the battery but do not confuse it's performance to the performance of lifepo4 period.

Example- comparing agm to flooded batt.
sure we all love agm but flooded isn't incapable, just sometimes bad option. I wouldnt recommend flooded though.. but point is the same.

A single d3100 has a discharge duration potential at 1000a that is quite similar to this battery.

However, it's not fair to compare the two in this manner.

I'd suggest people researching lifepo4 more to understand exactly what is going on with this tech and all that's available.

Juicebox is very good option for being the first choice premade but for other types of applications for car audio, there are all kinds of cells for all types of usage that will blow your mind.
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Old 03-29-2015, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shizzzon View Post
Everyone knows that test is flaky.

And its not hard to get that type of performance out of prismatic cells either.

Juicebox batt does deserve the respect it should have on the complexity of the battery but do not confuse it's performance to the performance of lifepo4 period.

Example- comparing agm to flooded batt.
sure we all love agm but flooded isn't incapable, just sometimes bad option. I wouldnt recommend flooded though.. but point is the same.

A single d3100 has a discharge duration potential at 1000a that is quite similar to this battery.

However, it's not fair to compare the two in this manner.

I'd suggest people researching lifepo4 more to understand exactly what is going on with this tech and all that's available.

Juicebox is very good option for being the first choice premade but for other types of applications for car audio, there are all kinds of cells for all types of usage that will blow your mind.
What test are you referring to?
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Old 03-29-2015, 09:41 PM
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Well I guess it makes no sense as the convo wasn't on here so may be viewed as takin out of context so ill ask you.

What makes this battery look like a beast in the video?
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Old 03-29-2015, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shizzzon View Post
Well I guess it makes no sense as the convo wasn't on here so may be viewed as takin out of context so ill ask you.

What makes this battery look like a beast in the video?
Idk the fact that it's a single 30lb battery holding higher voltage against 2 of the largest agm batteries on the market? Or the fact that I actually own 1 and have it installed in my truck so I know first hand it's capabilities?

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Old 03-30-2015, 12:11 AM
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The only batteries holding voltage are the nsbs.
Its as clear as day in the video.

The Jb is rapidly draining as it should be at 21C.

You do realize at 21C that the JB has about 2-2.5min of play before the BMS shuts the battery down?

those nsb 400w were not cycled to rest at 13.1v either vs the Jb surface charge which is slightly unfair but more importantly, those 400s are designed for duration.

You cant get duration that the 400s would have exhibited if the test were never stopped.

Hence my comment earlier... the test is flaky because people are interpreting the results a little differently.

In my opinion, if all you want is something that can handle that load for several seconds, one doesn't need a battery at all but ultracapacitors.

I believe people want batteries regardless of technology for durational use and it's not wise to base battery sizing for an application that may not handle that load for more than a couple minutes. Sure, there is no alternator on the load but the test wasn't about that though.

I'd be more interested to know what is the estimated cycle life if I were to want to use this at 20c+ all the time and at what temp should the batt be monitored and does the BMS monitor temp?

Because if you do not know this and it gets stressed a lot... thats one of several ways to lower life expectancy out of lithium cells. Heat and continuous over C rate.

I know the pack is rated for 28c rms but at what cycle life and expected temp is that?

a single d3100 can handle 1000a for 30s flat and still be above 10.0v.
drop it down a hair and triple the quantity.

It would destroy the Jb in burst loads like that.

Thats why I say there are tons of lifepo4 cells out there for all kinds of uses.

What this test shows is the following-

Even though the nsbs were questionably as ready as the Jb was, the nsbs clearly can hold high loads for long time whereas the Jb can handle short bursts of instantaneous high c loads as long as the purpose isn't for continued use while maintaining a slightly higher voltage under load.
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Old 03-30-2015, 12:24 AM
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I'm not well versed in as much battery lingo. But are you essentially saying that this is a burp battery and that traditional formats are better for continual use?
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Old 03-30-2015, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shizzzon View Post
The only batteries holding voltage are the nsbs.
Its as clear as day in the video.

The Jb is rapidly draining as it should be at 21C.

You do realize at 21C that the JB has about 2-2.5min of play before the BMS shuts the battery down?

those nsb 400w were not cycled to rest at 13.1v either vs the Jb surface charge which is slightly unfair but more importantly, those 400s are designed for duration.

You cant get duration that the 400s would have exhibited if the test were never stopped.

Hence my comment earlier... the test is flaky because people are interpreting the results a little differently.

In my opinion, if all you want is something that can handle that load for several seconds, one doesn't need a battery at all but ultracapacitors.

I believe people want batteries regardless of technology for durational use and it's not wise to base battery sizing for an application that may not handle that load for more than a couple minutes. Sure, there is no alternator on the load but the test wasn't about that though.

I'd be more interested to know what is the estimated cycle life if I were to want to use this at 20c+ all the time and at what temp should the batt be monitored and does the BMS monitor temp?

Because if you do not know this and it gets stressed a lot... thats one of several ways to lower life expectancy out of lithium cells. Heat and continuous over C rate.

I know the pack is rated for 28c rms but at what cycle life and expected temp is that?

a single d3100 can handle 1000a for 30s flat and still be above 10.0v.
drop it down a hair and triple the quantity.

It would destroy the Jb in burst loads like that.

Thats why I say there are tons of lifepo4 cells out there for all kinds of uses.

What this test shows is the following-

Even though the nsbs were questionably as ready as the Jb was, the nsbs clearly can hold high loads for long time whereas the Jb can handle short bursts of instantaneous high c loads as long as the purpose isn't for continued use while maintaining a slightly higher voltage under load.
Really I'm pretty sure Nathan from Xs power put up a video of a single d3100 with only a 500 amp load on it and it was dropping to 10v but you're saying it can hold 1000a for 30s? Hell Tfades test was only pulling 300amps of current and dropping some popular G31 batts in to the 10v range but they can handle 1000a loads and stay above 10v Come on this isn't my first BBQ I have first hand experience with both agm batts and The juice box lithium batt...there's no way a hell a single d3100 could even come close to hanging with a lithium batt the way you say it can.shit 3-4 for that matter....i beat the shit out of the juice box lithium at a show last Sunday and NEVER dropped below 13.1 v when I was previously dropping to 11.9 with my DC 320 amp alt G34 in front and 2 G31s in back...do you know gown many more agms I would've had to add to hold that voltage as I was with just ONE lithium??
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Old 03-30-2015, 12:48 AM
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And if you look at the C rating it's rates for 1000a continuous draw
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Old 03-30-2015, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kr-15 View Post
I'm not well versed in as much battery lingo. But are you essentially saying that this is a burp battery and that traditional formats are better for continual use?
Eh.. you made the question too broad, lol...

Simply put... 40ah... vs whatever.
in duration, larger ah is longer reserve kinda.

40ah lifepo4 on this is equivalent to about 80-130ah loosely.

But the point I am making is this is a high discharge, small reserve, pack being compared to 2 high reserve, small discharge pack.

Doesn't that seem flaky to anyone?

They are used for 2 different applications.

if I wasn't in here talking about it, I'm sure many would just see the ah of both batts and say the Jb is hundreds of ah smaller but still pushing high loads...

Well, that's generally how that works...

Lithium is plenty capable of duration but it has to be sized according to application.

That sentence means nothing specifically here except if customers only want to run at high bursts loads only... the reserve will be much smaller than banks of agms.

Weight to weight.. lithium wins I don't care how crappy the cells are but in terms of only performance... lithium is new in general to the car audio world and the terminology for lithium is DIFFERENT for agms and different things to know vs agm.

I find it very "comfortable" that lithium came on the market like it's just a new model of battery.

Its not that simple and if we were talking in person, I have paperwork of how the lithium industry is like the black market where everybody is out to get everybody. The buildhouses that is and make big companies like A123 has been in the shit for quite a few years lately.

But.. im not changing the subject, I'm just baffled, 5 layers thick, lol, of how its been adopted without people testing them with any reasonable sense.

Example-
Nobody would find it fair if I were to test 2 amps both rated at 2000w but one does that power at 2ohm but they are both 1ohm stable, right?

Apples to apples here.

Same scenario when dynamic burst ratings are posted online from the amp dyno and many people think that's for measuring power output... ugh... I shake my head.

Just need to do tons of research because there is so much info out there it's overwhelming at times.
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