Car Audio Classifieds! banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,029 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Some of you guys may know, I run Focal 136K's in kickpanels and Critical Mass MB-82's in my doors. The Focals are the older Polykevlar line. They have the TN45 tweeter and 5 3/8" kevlar midrange/bass. I have been using these speakers for a while, but they have always been missing something. They sound too "airy" to me. I want something that sounds more "full", "natural", and/or "warm". This is not part of an SQ setup, rather more SQL. My vehicle is a daily driver and it is for my listening enjoyment, not competing. I have thought about doing an array of tweets/mids in the a-pillar/doors, but I am not sure which drivers to look at...all I know is I've finally realized that the Focal's are not for me.


Any suggestions or advise? I have talked to a few people about this but would like to open it up for discussion.


CAR: 2005 Lincoln LS

POWER: Currently - Memphis Belle (75x2 @ 4 passive on the Focals, 115x2 @ 2 active on the CM's)

POWER: Future (once it gets warmer here!) - Memphis MC300 (230x2 @ 2 for the CM's) and 2x MC3004's (ea. 75x4 @ 4 or 115x4 @ 2 or 230x2 @ 4 bridged)

SOURCE: OEM w/AC LC7 and Three.1 - possibly moving to Eclipse CD8454 once it comes back from United Radio
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
190 Posts
I would say something with a paper cone (or similar) and silk tweets. Maybe somthing like CDT HD line, or HAT, I've always felt that paper cones warmer more natural sound. Just my thoughts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
184 Posts
Proper time alignment and a little eq always gives me that really full realistic sound even with my previous all aluminum seas setup. Id try eq'ing them to what you want.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,029 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Proper time alignment and a little eq always gives me that really full realistic sound even with my previous all aluminum seas setup. Id try eq'ing them to what you want.
Sounds like I need to get my CD8454 fixed then! No T/A with the way it is set up now. I have tried EQ'ing some but still can't get it to sound the way I want it to!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
184 Posts
Sounds like I need to get my CD8454 fixed then! No T/A with the way it is set up now. I have tried EQ'ing some but still can't get it to sound the way I want it to!
Whenever you set your t/a dont set it by distance, its 99% of the time not right and setting by ear is so so sooo much better. Ill find a tutorial for setting by ear if youve never tried it
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,029 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Whenever you set your t/a dont set it by distance, its 99% of the time not right and setting by ear is so so sooo much better. Ill find a tutorial for setting by ear if youve never tried it
Awesome, I'd appreciate that. What about the autotune on the 8454 as a starting point?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
184 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,029 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Alright, so I have narrowed down my midrange choice to two drivers...a/d/s 344is or Scan-Speak Discovery 15M/4624G-00. I will be running 2 mids per side up front. Now how about speaker placement? I was thinking about mounting two mids per a-pillar but that might not be possible with the Scan's since they are 5.25".

What would be my best course of action running a tweeter and 2 mids per side or even 2 tweeters and 2 mids per side?

My other option would be multiple sets of separates with the mids in the doors and tweets in an a-pillar array, but I'm not sure I want to go that route.

What should I base my decision on?
 

·
mine>yours
Joined
·
2,130 Posts
Ray,
Sorry about it taking so long for me to get back to ya.
I highly recommend the A-pillars, and T/A is huge, and I mean HUGE! if one hasn't used T/A properly in the past, the thought would be "it sounds good the way it is, why bother with T/A" But once you get it dialed in, the staging is increadable, but also the response is improve greatly also, as you are getting the phasing adjusted also. I personally have had great results from 4" drivers and tweets at the A pillars. I would venture to say that 3" domes would give similar results when replacing the 4". I would also say that keeping it simple is a better way to go, as when you get into multiple drivers running the same frequencies (especially 1000hz and up) and they are on different planes you end up with a bunch of issues that are hard to correct, if they can be corrected at all. I would suggest using the MB82 to run ~80-500hz then a 3" or 4" to run ~500-3000hz and a nice smooth tweet to take the ~3000-up. Placing the mids in the A-pillars forward of the tweets, with the tweets as far into the corner of the window/A-pillar/dash intersection, this will give maximium distance helping the off axis response. Try to keep the mid and tweet as close as possible to the same plane. you will be amazed how much volume you can get out of this setup.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
18,247 Posts
I would say try a dedicated dome tweeter in place of the focal, I bet the fact that they're in the kicks and you're using them as midrange has caused some issues.

You may also want to try reversing phase on the mid in the passenger side to see if it changes the overall character of your front stage.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,029 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Ray,
Sorry about it taking so long for me to get back to ya.
I highly recommend the A-pillars, and T/A is huge, and I mean HUGE! if one hasn't used T/A properly in the past, the thought would be "it sounds good the way it is, why bother with T/A" But once you get it dialed in, the staging is increadable, but also the response is improve greatly also, as you are getting the phasing adjusted also. I personally have had great results from 4" drivers and tweets at the A pillars. I would venture to say that 3" domes would give similar results when replacing the 4". I would also say that keeping it simple is a better way to go, as when you get into multiple drivers running the same frequencies (especially 1000hz and up) and they are on different planes you end up with a bunch of issues that are hard to correct, if they can be corrected at all. I would suggest using the MB82 to run ~80-500hz then a 3" or 4" to run ~500-3000hz and a nice smooth tweet to take the ~3000-up. Placing the mids in the A-pillars forward of the tweets, with the tweets as far into the corner of the window/A-pillar/dash intersection, this will give maximium distance helping the off axis response. Try to keep the mid and tweet as close as possible to the same plane. you will be amazed how much volume you can get out of this setup.
This is great info Kent! So you are saying I should stick with 1 mid and 1 tweeter per a-pillar? I have read about issues with running more than 1 mid, but I also read that you can place 1 mid in the a-pillar and the other somewhere else, as long as they are the same distance away?

The only thing about the above that is confusing is you suggest mounting the tweeter deeper in the a-pillar than the mid? From what I have been reading, you want the mid in the a-pillar as far away from you as possible. I'd like to get both the mid and the tweet as close to on-axis as possible...30 degrees off at most.

I would say try a dedicated dome tweeter in place of the focal, I bet the fact that they're in the kicks and you're using them as midrange has caused some issues.

You may also want to try reversing phase on the mid in the passenger side to see if it changes the overall character of your front stage.
I think the problem with the kicks is that the mids face directly at my feet and they are so far off axis that they sound like crap on the top end of the mid-range. I am definitely going to try reversing the phase on the passenger side to see if that makes a difference.

Which tweeter do you suggest? I have been eyeing Kent's Cantons or a/d/s px tweets.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
18,247 Posts
Sorry I meant dedicated dome midrange LOL. I would suggest Dynaudio MD142's or DLS IR3's something along those lines with a dome.
 

·
mine>yours
Joined
·
2,130 Posts
This is great info Kent! So you are saying I should stick with 1 mid and 1 tweeter per a-pillar? I have read about issues with running more than 1 mid, but I also read that you can place 1 mid in the a-pillar and the other somewhere else, as long as they are the same distance away?

The only thing about the above that is confusing is you suggest mounting the tweeter deeper in the a-pillar than the mid? From what I have been reading, you want the mid in the a-pillar as far away from you as possible. I'd like to get both the mid and the tweet as close to on-axis as possible...30 degrees off at most.



I think the problem with the kicks is that the mids face directly at my feet and they are so far off axis that they sound like crap on the top end of the mid-range. I am definitely going to try reversing the phase on the passenger side to see if that makes a difference.

Which tweeter do you suggest? I have been eyeing Kent's Cantons or a/d/s px tweets.
As you go lower in frequency it gets harder to distinguish where the source is coming from. In turn, as you get higher, it gets easier. When I say put the tweet further away, or behind the mid, I am only talking a couple inchs to allow for mounting. In a perfect world you would have the face of the tweet on the same plane as the mid, but hell, we all know Car audio isn't perfect world! as for on and off axis, I typically point my tweets directly at the inside shoulder of the seat opposite the tweeter I am mounting (if that makes sense) so that basically if you were to draw a line on axis, the two tweets axis lines would cross right over the center councel to the mid/back of the arm rest. I allow myself a little more slack with the mids, mainly because of mounting constraints, but I do try to keep them as close to the same axis line as the tweets.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
18,247 Posts
I think that'll pretty much take care of the issue. Reversing the phase might also help a lot though. Curious to hear your results. Reversing that passenger side midrange should pull the response from the driver side "out" for lack of a better term.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,029 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Sorry I meant dedicated dome midrange LOL. I would suggest Dynaudio MD142's or DLS IR3's something along those lines with a dome.
These look good but may be a little bit too expensive for my build. I will keep an eye out for any of these on the forums.

I am really leaning towards the Scan's or the a/d/s's I mentioned because of price and efficiency.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,029 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I think that'll pretty much take care of the issue. Reversing the phase might also help a lot though. Curious to hear your results. Reversing that passenger side midrange should pull the response from the driver side "out" for lack of a better term.
I am looking forward to trying this out this weekend.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,029 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
As you go lower in frequency it gets harder to distinguish where the source is coming from. In turn, as you get higher, it gets easier. When I say put the tweet further away, or behind the mid, I am only talking a couple inchs to allow for mounting. In a perfect world you would have the face of the tweet on the same plane as the mid, but hell, we all know Car audio isn't perfect world! as for on and off axis, I typically point my tweets directly at the inside shoulder of the seat opposite the tweeter I am mounting (if that makes sense) so that basically if you were to draw a line on axis, the two tweets axis lines would cross right over the center councel to the mid/back of the arm rest. I allow myself a little more slack with the mids, mainly because of mounting constraints, but I do try to keep them as close to the same axis line as the tweets.
Alright Kent, this sounds good...I will bring this to the attention of the person that will be building out my a-pillars. I think I can keep the tweeter and midrange on the same plane, especially if I am only using 1 of each.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top